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Post by MBell on Dec 7, 2004 11:18:33 GMT -5
I've used to have a rapala scale, it worked good and was accurate. I now have the cheaper berkley scale and my on water weights matched what I weighed in on gnt's scales. The only problem is in rough water the reading will change and you have to know how to read it. For this to work, each club member must have a scale and take it with them in the tournaments, two to a boat will provide a back up if needed. It would not be hard to make some score cards in photoshop and have them laminated, you could then write on them with wax pencils and water would not be an issue. The cards could then be turned in to keep records, you could also have fields on how the fish were caught then we could produce some stats for the tourament to learn from. The club sounds like a good idea let me know what I need to do to be involved.
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Post by Revtro on Dec 7, 2004 12:03:11 GMT -5
I agree with the scale thing. Perhaps we should notify the people who are interested and eventually plan a get-together to discuss the club and start planning for the spring. Maybe after the holidays we could do it. Let's give it a couple of more weeks to see if anyone else on these boards wants to get involved. If you have any friends who might be interested, invite them to participate as well.
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Post by Northernbass on Dec 7, 2004 12:34:14 GMT -5
Hey Revtro, I would vote for using the Rapala scales I also have one incase soemthing happens we will have a few of them. I think that it is close enough. Ok here is a sort of breakdown of what I was proposing for points system to still make angler of the year for the guy with the most points competitive for all.
Tournament 1
1st place = 200 pts for each angler of the team+weight 2nd place= 198 pts for each angler of the team+weight 3rd place= 196 pts for each angler of the team +weight 4th place= 194 pts for each angler of the team +weight 5th place= 192pts for each angler of the team +weight 6thplace = 190pts for each angler of the team+weight etc.
Now for the pairing of tournament 2
1st place guys get paired with last place guys. Second place guys get paired with 5th place guys. 3rd place guys get paired with 4th place guys.
Points system same.
Pairing for the 3rd tournament
1st place guys from previous tournament with last place guys 2nd place guys from previous tournament with 5th plalce guys 3rd place guys from previous tournament with 4th place guys.
points systerm again the same
etc etc
This format I think will make it competitive yet very informational for all. Because the two guys that win the first tournament will be paired with guys that finished last in the points for the first tournament. This will make the guy who won the first tournament really help is partner that finished last in the first tournament since they are now a team. I think that this will make it fair for everyone for angler of the year points race. I think by the end of the tournament season you will see the points race fairly close with this system.
Also I think that by fishing smaller lakes that don't have tourneys on them which there are tons, guys won't mind sharing info because their bigger tourneys are not held there.
As far as the classic I like the idea of traveling up north somewhere. There are tons of nice lakes that don't get fished for bass. I know tons of them in my area up nroth that have campgrounds on them we could rent a few spots and all have a good time.
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Post by Northernbass on Dec 7, 2004 12:38:38 GMT -5
Revtro, I sent you a PM!!
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Post by MBell on Dec 8, 2004 12:03:49 GMT -5
I like the points format, but don't like the ponints for weight. 10lbs on St. Clair is bad, but 10 pounds on some inland lakes is great and both would be rewarded the same. Adding the weight would also separate the points unevenly, in a close finish the difference between first and second coluld be only a few points while if one team blows everyone else away the difference could be something that you may not be able to recover from in one season. Also when it comes down to the end, you can actually tell where you need to place to move up. You also have to consider do you want to reward winning, consistency or both. With a small club you may end up fishing with the same people every other tournament.
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Post by Revtro on Dec 8, 2004 12:45:40 GMT -5
Not sure exactly what you mean. Do you mean that the points should be only tied to where you place in the tournament? In other words, if you place first, you would get x-amount of points? I think that's how it works in most organizations that use a point system...isn't it? That makes sense, because you get rewarded for finishing in first place on St. Clair the same way you would get rewarded for finishing first on a small lake.
So it would go more like this for any lake we fish?
1st place = 200 pts for each angler of the team 2nd place= 198 pts for each angler of the team 3rd place= 196 pts for each angler of the team 4th place= 194 pts for each angler of the team 5th place= 192pts for each angler of the team 6thplace = 190pts for each angler of the team
If we add weight to the points system, then the guys who can't make as many Lake St. Clair events might find it hard to compete if they only fish lakes where the weights tend to be smaller. That would be my concern because I've seen that happen. Or, some guys might want to skip out on the small lakes because they think they can just come in and kick butt on St. Clair, thus limiting some participation. I've seen that happen a bunch of times.
What do you guys think?
Under this scenario, are we saying that rather than compete against your score from last year, that we would reward Angler of the Year based on where you place that season like most other tournament organizations do?
I would be ok with that since this kind of arrangement would make the better anglers want to invest in the less experienced anglers due to the team concept of each tournament. Plus we always have the right to exclude someone from the club if they aren't in sync with the overall attitude we want the club to maintain.
The last thing I would ever want to see is a guy just joining the club just so he could get into the state tournament or using the club just to practice for some other tournament organization. I really hope we can attract good guys who genuinely want to be in a friendly club that we all learn from, not information hordes. Just my opinion.
I like where this is all heading so far. I just talked to two other guys who say they're in and I beleive I have two more also who will want to join. So that puts us around 6, possibly 7 so far. I think everyone who has expressed interest has a boat, so we need to interest some non-boaters. If we can get a half dozen or so nonboaters, we'll have a really nice mix to start.
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Post by Northernbass on Dec 8, 2004 14:10:44 GMT -5
You guys are right on the points system just keep it to the x amout of points for each place that will make the points close at the end of the year so really everyone will be in the angler of the year race.
As to awarding the angler of the year like other clubs do, I think that is fair. Like I said above at the end of the year if we keep pairing the top guys with the lowest guys that will make the points in the end very close and ultimatly fair, fun and interesting for everyone.
More questions I have that we should think about now are, what if we don't have enough non boaters for all of the boaters. Since this is a team thing. Also what if we get to many non-boaters, which from what you have said everyone has a boat so this shouldn't be a problem but I guess one way of solving this is a first come first serve basis.
Also what should we charge as entry fees for the tournaments. I was thinking something low like 5-10$. This money could all go into the pot to be used for the classic maybe for such things as campsites to get everyone together, or maybe gift certificates for the classic. Just a thought to get us thinking of those types of things as well?
Now as far as how we should do the weigh ins. I love the golden rule tourneys for the early season catch and release season lakes. But personally once the season opens I like the idea of bringing the fish in. FOr me anyways I look forward to seeing what everyone has caught, it is fun to see all the fish. That is again just my opinion, what does everyone else think?
Finally I just came up with a few inland lakes that we could fish that are not really known for the large tournament trails, so guys shouldn't have a problem with talking about spots and techniques. 1. Sylvan Lake (next to cass) 2. Lotus, Maceday Lake 3. Loon Lake 4. Tipsico Lake 5. Wolverine Lake And of course we have Kent, Pontiac, Cass and I believe stoney Creek for early catch and release season golden rule tourneys. As far as the classic destination I think what we could do is who ever is interested or the people who are joining the club we will have them just fill out a sheet of paper with some simple info but have a section on there for them to list some places they would like to see it and that would give us a good starting point to run ideas across to the other members. What do you guys think? I would be more than willing to come up with a club paper with all the rules and what is exspected or assist with this in any other way. I think this is a good idea to meet new friends and of course have fun fishing together.
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Post by Revtro on Dec 8, 2004 14:39:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I was thinking about the nonboater thing as it relates to the team concept. What do we do if we have a boater with no partner? In major tournaments, I suppose there would be observers, but that wouldn't help us because the single person wouldn't have a partner to add to the total weight. I suppose we could draw for who takes their boat and pair up so everyone has a partner. Or boaters could volunteer to go as nonboaters occasionally. But that still leaves the possibility of someone having to fish alone. Since I really believe in the club concept, I would be willing to be the odd man out and fish alone if need be. To be fair, I would be willing to bring all my fish in to the weigh in even if we are doing immediate release.
Personally, I don't think we'll have any trust issues, so I don't have a problem with someone fishing alone as long as they are willing and understand that they won't have a partner to add to their total weight.
However, another way to handle this is to have one boat with 3 guys. But I don't know how to score it to be fair with 3 guys. That would be pretty tough. Again, I'll volunteer to be the odd man out if necessary for the good of the club.
Not sure what to charge for the tourneys, but I like the idea of keeping it low. Do you like the idea of making the entry fee double as the big fish pot? We could then use the yearly dues to cover trophies or gift certificates. Or we could take half of the entry fee per tourney and use it toward a big fish pot. I like the idea of including big fish in the entry fee because sometimes guys don't have the extra few bucks to get into the pot and end up having the big fish, but not being able to get the prize. I've been there. Also, should we include a nonboater fee in the tourney fee or just leave that between the boaters and their partners?
Typically there is a $20 nonboater fee, but in most cases it rarely seems like the boater uses $40 in gas unless you're making a big run on St. Clair somewhere. Maybe we could consider a $10 entry fee for boaters with half going to big fish and the other half going to the club for the end of the year stuff. And a $20 nonboater fee with $10 going to the boater for gas and $5 for big fish and $5 for the end of the year stuff. So in essence, even though the boater is not quite getting enough for gas on the days where he makes a long run, he is basically getting his entry fee covered. For the days where the boater will be making a long run, it would be the responsibility of the boater to ask for more. This is just a thought...what are some similar schemes we could use? I'm open to ideas.
Lastly I'll weigh in on the weigh in. (Pun definitely intended) My only concern about bringing fish in is fish mortality. I hate to kill fish if it's not necessary. I'll go along with whatever the consensus is, but I don't mind boatside weights with immediate release. You're right...a weigh in is definitely more fun though. My only other concern is that we wouldn't be able to accept members whose boats don't have livewells. I know of one guy who wants to join, but doesn't have livewells. I guess he could use a cooler with an areator. That might work. Something to think about.
I like the lakes NB listed. I had a blast on Lotus/Maceday this past summer. I hate Cass, but I fish it every year anyway...tradition I guess.
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Post by Revtro on Dec 8, 2004 14:42:26 GMT -5
Hey Northern, I have the rules from my last club that might be a good starting point if you don't have anything yet. I can email them to you if you want. I think they are way too long and contain too much nitpicking for my taste, but if it would help, we can use them as a way to evaluate what we'd like our rules to be. I think we should keep the rules as simple as possible and keep the club as friendly and low key as possible. Sometimes too many rules create more problems than they solve.
Thanks for volunteering to do a club paper! That would be great.
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Post by MBell on Dec 8, 2004 17:00:40 GMT -5
Your right, weigh-ins are fun. The only problem I see with a weigh-in would be the cost of equipment and the need for a permit which would really become an issue during scheduling. With more than 5 members, I believe that rules are a must, the best way to do it would be get some rules from other tournament trails and use them as a guideline just to make sure nothing is left out. I also think that before you can even talk about points or which lakes to fish you have to know how many events there are going to be. You also have to consider boat traffic, a lot of local inland lakes are almost unfishable on the weekend in the summer. Northern, for some reason I thought that Sylvan was private? Is this going to be a big water club or a small water club or both, and do most members have boat's capable of handleing the big lakes? Two lakes not mentioned are Lakeville Lake(for diversity) and Lake Huron/St. Clair river out of Port Huron or somewhere else up there, maybe algonac so you could still fish the st. clair.
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Post by Northernbass on Dec 8, 2004 17:54:10 GMT -5
Hey guys,
What I will do I get some rules from other circuts and kind of use them as a guide line but I will delete and enter some of the things we have been talking about and I will send you guys each a copy since we seem to be the three that are most into this and you guys can look them over and give me any ideas on what else to add or what to take away until we come up with somethign all three of us think will do. For now I will just come up with some money ideas in their just so you guys can see what my suggestions are and like I said you guys can reply back with that is good or how about this and stuff and we can go from there.
I think that Lakeville is a good lake too, I was just listing some lakes off of my head. Sylvan lake does have a launch a buddy of mine fishes it and says it is an awesome lake for both smallies and largemouths. These other places like huron or st.clair those would be fun to fish as well. I think we should print off some schedules for the larger tournament trails like bfl and stuff so we can kind of come up with some rough dates placed around those tourneys.
Abotu the boat traffic we could do the tourneys on sundays and possibly start a little earlier than normal and get done a little earlier than normal.
Can you guys tell me what this boatside weigh in is? I have never done one of those.
Well keep up with the ideas guys. I will start with the rules here very soon.
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Post by Northernbass on Dec 8, 2004 18:14:12 GMT -5
How many tournaments do you guys think we should have? And how many should someone have to fish to be eligible for the classic?
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Post by MBell on Dec 8, 2004 22:39:05 GMT -5
I pulled out the calender for next year which at this time only has th BFL schedule. In what I consider fishable months, April-October(maybe november too) 2 tournaments a month would be no problem but thats way to many events, 14. I would fish as many as I could, but I don't think you could get participation for that many events. I think the right number of events would be 7 regular season events leading to an 8th independent classic event in september. With in these seven events you could also have 2 drops so your year end score would be based on your best 5 finishes. The reason for two drops would be scheduling conflicts, and some guys may not have their boat ready if an early tourament is scheduled. I came up with 7 by spacing the events out, 1 in April, 2 in May, 2 in June, 1 in July, 1 in August then a classic in September. The classic could be cool, make it a 2 day weekend event at a mystery lake or plan on going somewhere up north. Also must fish a cetain number of events to fish the classic, an incentive for participation. In my last club, they held the draw for the next tournament at the weigh-in, so if you didn't fish an event it was hard to get into the next one and get paired up. Maybe have some sort of registration process, have someone take phone calls and e-mails up until a deadline. I like the idea of Sundays, if I fish a tournament on Saturday I'm alomst always fishing Sunday anyway. That's an easy way to schedule around the other trails. What do you guys think on the events to many, to few? We should try and get some of the basics out of the way before we meet, have something already in place for the others to make changes to and vote on. Revtrp have you thought about the structue of the club(ie. President, tournament director)?
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Post by Revtro on Dec 9, 2004 7:50:04 GMT -5
Hi guys. So much to respond to...
NB. When I say boatside weigh in I mean that each boat would have a digital scale, and weigh their own fish immediately and release them unharmed. I agree that it would be best for every angler to have his own scale, so that there is always a backup on the boat and a way to double check weights. It's kind of like a Golden Rule tournament, but more accurate.
Originally when I came up with the new club idea I thought of having the club be a mixture of big water and small water. I like fishing St. Clair, but our last club had all the warm weather tournaments on St. Clair and only a few small lakes in the pre-season. I would like to mix things up a bit more. Maybe 2 or at most 3 on St. Clair, then the rest on smaller bodies dispersed throughout the season.
I agree that 14 tournaments would be a bit much. (although I'm fishing every weekend anyway). How about we consider 2 in July, 1 in September and a classic in October? It's fun getting out in the cold in October. Kent Lake rocked in October from all accounts for example. That would bring our tournament schedule up to 9 events, plus the classic. That way if someone misses two events or drops two events, we still have 7 events counting towards our scores as opposed to 5.
Sundays are fine with me, although I certainly don't mind having a couple of Friday events during the busiest part of the summer if guys are able to get the time off to do it. Our last club had all our events on Fridays or Mondays and it made it tough for a lot of guys to get there because of work, but a couple of weekdays only might not be a problem. It depends on individual guys' level of flexibility with work. Cass for instance, is unfishable during the weekends in the summer. Even on Sundays it can be a nightmare out there. I was out this summer on Orion also on a Saturday and it was pretty busy. Plus they only have one launch which made things tough. We should consider the launches when we pick lakes. We might want to shy away from lakes that don't have adequate launches.
A couple of the guys that will be joining both have boats adequate for big water. Hopefully I can get them talking on this board soon. They fish St. Clair all the time and my boat is fine for big water too. How about you guys? Would we be ok with a couple of St. Clair events?
I would say if we have 9 possible qualifiying events for the classic, with two drops, we should maybe make the minimum events to fish the classic at 5 or 6.
As far as the structure goes. Initially I was thinking of not having a president. In most clubs it doesn't seem like the president does all that much anyway. (at least in my experience) My vote would be to have a Tournament Director just so that there is someone who would help schedule the launches and run the blast off. But I think it would be good for all decisions to be made by voting. That way no one can ever accuse someone of trying to run the whole show.
By the way, I have a list of tournament organizations that we scheduled around last year. I'll email it out and include our last club's rules. Again, I still think we should way simplify the rules and keep it as friendly as possible. Do you guys agree? Can you guys PM me your email addresses?
This is all looking good. I think it's gonna be a nice club. Oh yeah, don't forget that we are generally considering this an East Side club, so when we pick lakes, we should try not to go too far West. At least 5 of the guys who have expressed interest live in Roseville, Eastpointe, and Warren. Everyone cool with that? I think most Oakland County lakes are ok as long as we're not getting into a 2 hour drive on a tournament day. I work on Sunday nights, so I couldn't be making a long drive home. I need to be back on my side of town by 4 at the latest. I'm a pastor and my church's services are on Sunday nights. (don't worry, I won't preach at you guys. he he he)
Thanks guys. Let's keep the brainstorming going. Tom
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Post by MBell on Dec 9, 2004 11:38:28 GMT -5
Fridays would be good during the busy part of the summer, although it's still the work week and I wouldn't be able to commit to anything in advance. Maybe have a few weekend events that count for points and the classic and we could have some informal tournaments just for fun that are not specifically sheduled. My boat is big enough for the big water, any interest in an erie event. I prefer St. Clair(unless it's calm) but you don't want to have too many tournaments out of the same place. Now that I think about it, I do hate that 4 a.m. drive downriver.
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